Ian Jones

The following is an interview between Derryn Hinch (radio 3AW) and Ian Jones.
(Kelly Historian)

The interview ran for about ten minutes at around 16:30 hrs 26/1/07.

Words in Italics are mine to assist the reader.

Derryn Hinch was commenting about an article in today’s Australian newspaper which was based on an earlier article about Ned Kelly in the December edition of the Australian Police Journal written by ex Federal policeman Martin Leonard.

The newspaper article can be read here....http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21118322-31501,00.html

This transcript is not 100% of what was said, however it is very close.

I recorded the audio on my MP3 player in the car during my work break.

I then listened back and typed it as I believe I heard it.

I think you will agree it was a great interview and busted wide open the latest anti-Kelly articles.

From the outset Hinch declared he agreed with Devine. (anti Kelly stance)

Hinch went on to discuss the article and then introduced Historian Ian Jones.

Hinch: Martin Leonard has made the ‘Kelly myth’ a project of his own…….

Hinch: Ian Jones a man who has written books about him (Ned Kelly), knows a fair bit about him….to Jones; the article tears the Kelly legend apart….

Jones: it tries to Derryn, they are both hysterically anti Kelly, now that’s a lousy starting point to write history, you see when I started my thoughts about Ned the first book I ever read about Ned portrayed him as a saint, the next book I read about Ned portrayed him as a real villain, a black hat, so at the age of ten, 65 years ago I decided I really have to find out for myself, now that’s all I’ve done ever since.

Hinch: Ok, lets make things a bit easier here for the listeners , debunk them if you can, if you think you should, I’ll go through them one at a time..

Jones: great.

Hinch: That Ned Kelly shot himself in the foot whilst trying to shoot somebody else–

Jones: don’t know what he’s talking about.

Hinch: ok, leave that one.

Hinch: (Ned) Squealed on Power (Harry Power), (Ned) attacked by uncles because of this and to teach Ned that Kelly’s don’t squeal…

Jones – captured by the police, treated very well, very cleverly, he talked to them about his time with Harry, told them about Harry’s movements and a couple of other things but he did not betray Harry he did not tell them where Harry’s hideout was. In fact one of the uncles who Mr Leonard claims came after Ned because he betrayed Harry was actually the man who had received the reward which was paid to another uncle of Ned’s, Jack Lloyd. But James Quinn, an uncle involved in that fracas he had actually received the reward and was obviously involved in the betrayal of Harry. I publish all that in my book, (Ned Kelly a Short Life) but Mr Leonard who has read my book ignores it, now that’s not a good way to write history.

Hinch: Ok, the next one, …..Leonard says Ned was arrested and charged with sending an indecent letter to a female , sent Mrs McCormack a letter and in it he mailed a pair of calves testicles. The note says that her husband should and I (Hinch) quote and make no apologies for this, that he should ‘take the testicles and tie them to his own c*ck so that he might shag her better next time’.

Jones: Now, this letter was delivered, and this text came straight out of my book. I was the first person who ever found the contents of the letter.

Hinch: True or false, did he do it?

Jones: No he didn’t. The point is this letter was written by a fellow named Ben Gould, who was having a blue with the McCormack’s , they were all ex Tasmanian convicts, all of them. Had some sort of feud going, probably because McCormack had been a convict constable, you know, a turncoat. They were marking calves one day and Ben Gould the hawker an older friend of the Kelly’s wrote this rude objectionable note and sent it, saying to Ned, “give this to the McCormack’s”. Ned obviously thought the whole thing was tacky and he didn’t like to do it so he gave it to his cousin and said give this to the McCormick’s. His cousin Tom Lloyd delivered it to McCormack and McCormack went burko. He said “who gave you this”, and Tom said “Ned Kelly’. So he belted off and got 16 year old Ned Kelly and attacked him, of course Ned more than stood up for himself. Ned was arrested and that’s the story, this story is told in detail in my book with all historical references and ignored by Mr Leonard.

Hinch: ok, the next one is, much has been said that Ned shot Sgt Kennedy
to put him out of his misery……………article claims that Kennedy was shot by a single shot at close range and that one of his ears was chopped off.

Jones: Kennedy was indeed killed by a single charge, not a single bullet, a charge of shot fired at point blank range. However before this, and there is clear evidence from the police and from the doctor though not from the PM (post mortem) that he had received serious wounds in his head and side, now theses would have proved fatal. The doctor, who wasn’t on site as claimed by Devine and or Leonard ..

Hinch : hmm

Jones: The doctor only saw the body when it was brought back to Mansfield

Hinch: decomposed five days later or something like that..

Jones: it was five days after he had been killed, in spring time, not mid summer but spring, not a very attractive sight. The doctor ignored in his report the other 2 wounds which were very serious. The men who were on the site had absolutely no doubt that Kennedy had been lying down when he was shot. It passed right through his body and the men who were there were able to identify the shot as the type of shot Kennedy had taken with him because he had been shot/killed with his own shotgun. Regurgitating this vicious story that Ned had handcuffed Kennedy and tortured him and tied him to a tree is just sick…..it is about as sick as Bill Bryson back in about 2000 when he wrote this stupid damn book down under……and claimed, for heavens sake this was something really fresh, that the Kelly’s handcuffed 3 police to trees and quote ‘shot their balls off and let them bleed to death’. This is how far people go when they try to tear down the Kelly figure.

Hinch: ok…..quick one, the idea that the jury was made up of city types where Leonard lists them as working men, gardeners….bricklayers, farmers….etc, what’s the truth in that?

Jones: Perfectly true…..but on the trial as it was conducted there was absolutely no alternative but to bring in a verdict of guilty…Leonard, he totally disagrees with John Phillips, former Chief Justice and brilliant Barrister who said that Ned Kelly’s trial was not held according to law, he says that Barry completely misdirected the jury…..Leonard must disagree with that of course, but the point about the jury is quite true, they were ordinary members of the public. But as I said there was virtually no alternative on the way the trial was conducted……

Hinch: OK one final point on this Australia day 2007 should we regard Ned Kelly as some sort of folk hero?……game as Ned Kelly…..should he be treated like a hero or as a Highwayman, gunman or thug?

Jones: Well he wasn’t a thug, so we can dismiss that…..he was a man who made some tragic mistakes…..got himself into some terrible trouble, and overall undertook himself with extraordinary courage and dignity….that’s another thing, Leonard claimed that Ned Kelly at Glenrowan was a cornered rat, that’s rubbish, he was way outside the police lines and came back……..badly wounded to try and rescue his mates…..

Hinch: another thing ….gee he could write well…..

Jones: Ned?

Hinch: Ned…..

Jones: The Jerilderie Letter …..

Hinch: The Jerilderie letter’s a great piece of writing isn’t it…..he wrote it…

Jones: no he composed it with his mate Joe Byrne, it was physically written by Joe Byrne….Derryn, if you listen to Ned, at his trial, you’ve got every second newspaper had a reporter there his exchange with Barry is incredibly eloquent, by golly it’s powerful this is a man who can really string words together …. but getting back to your point, look even though I led the team that won the great debate up here in Beechworth that Ned Kelly was an appropriate hero for Australia I never like to see Ned Kelly talked about as a hero or a villain because people are not like that, people are never white or black…..Ned Kelly was a man who should have hanged, it was inevitable that a man who admitted to killing police as he did, very happily and directly, should hang … but the man had amazing qualities…and I think we can respect those qualities without going as far as people like Leonard and Devine….they’re just throwing muck at him….they discredit themselves….and tragically I think The Australian Police Journal has discredited itself…

Hinch: I’m sure this is not the end of it that’s a good debate Mr Jones , thank you again for your time …

Jones: God Bless you Derryn….

Hinch: thank you bye bye.

Note: Permission has been given to me here at glenrowan1880 by Ian Jones to reproduce this interview. I take this opportunity to thank Ian for taking the time to be interviewed by 3AW. I think he did a splendid job in answering Ned’s critics.